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 Post subject: Loanwords from Lithuanian/Latvian to Estonian/Finnish
PostPosted: 2007 05 24, 16:00 

Joined: 2007 05 14, 18:19
Posts: 31
Location: Suomija
Foreword and warning :roll:

I do not know if this topic will be of great interest to many on this forum, it may also well be questioned if this theme belongs here at all. But - I find this a great possibility to take advantage of the knowledge and perhaps also the linguistic curiosity of other forum members to try to ravel a chapter in the background in the Finnougric language tree. :?

Perhaps it just goes to prove that at some period in history Lithuanian/Latvian speaking people were more advanced in some fields than the neighbouring Finnougric people and the needed new vocabulary was in many cases loaned from the Latvian/Lithuanian. It is of course possible that some words went to the other direction.
All the connections between the words cannot be certain. I will also add words which are only mildly suspected to be loans. Please feel free to comment. :P

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Last edited by gelezinkelio stotis on 2007 05 26, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Certain, probable or strange similiarities in vocabulary
PostPosted: 2007 05 24, 16:07 

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Location: Suomija
Lithuanian Latvian Estonian Finnish
alus (beer) alus (beer) õlu (beer) olut (beer)
amatas (trade) amats (trade) amet (profession,trade) ammatti (profession, trade)
avinas (ram) auns (ram) oinas (ram) oinas (ram)
bortas (side of a ship) borts (board) parras (side of a ship) parras (side of a ship)
burė (sail) bura (sail) puri (sail) purje (sail)
derva (tar) darva (tar) tõrv (tar) terva (tar)
dobilas (clover) ābolinš (clover) ristik (clover) apila (clover)
gabalas (piece, bit) gabals (piece, hunk) pala (piece) kappale (bit, copy, piece)
geltonas (yellow color) dzeltens (yellow) kollane (yellow) keltainen (yellow)
gyvas (live,living) dzīvs (lively) ?? kiivas (quick-tempered,anxious)
įgnybti (to pinch) kniebt (to pinch) näpistada (to pinch) nipistää (to pinch)
irklas ? (oar) airis (oar) aer (oar) airo (oar)
kadagys (juniper) kadikis (juniper) kadakas (juniper) kataja (juniper)
kaklas (neck) kakls (neck) kael (neck) kaula (neck, front part only)
katilas (kettle) katls (kettle) katel (kettle) kattila (kettle)
kėglis (skittle) ķeglis (skittle) keegel (pin, tenpin) keila (pin, tenpin)
kanopa (horse paw) kepa (paw) käpp (paw) käpälä (paw)
kylys (wedge) kīlis (wedge) kiil (wedge) kiila (wedge)
kriokti (to scream, yell) ķērkt (to scream, yell)?? kirkua (to scream)
kirvis (axe) cirvis (axe) kirves (axe) kirves (axe)
kurčias (deaf) kurls (deaf) kurt (deaf) kuuro (deaf)
kutenti (to tickle) kutinat (to tickle) kõdi(s)tama (tickle) kutina (itch)
laibas (thin) slaids (thin) lahja (thin) laiha (thin)
laiguonas, svainis (brother-in-law) svainis (brother-in-law) lang (relatives-in-law) lanko (brother-in-law)
laisvas (free, not busy) laisks (lazy) laisk (lazy) laiska (lazy)
laivas (ship) laiva (boat) laev (ship) laiva (ship)
lakti (to lap) lakt (to lap) lakkuda (to lap, to lick) latkia (to lap)
lapas (sheet) lapa (sheet) laba (plate) lapa (plate)
lašeti (to drop) lāsot (to drop) lasta (to let loose) laskea (to let loose)
laukis (animal with a star on forehead) laucis (same) ?? laukki (white stripe on horse's head)
lazda (stick) lazda (nut-tree) ?? lasta (sort of stick)
lepšis (nincompoop, pansy, wimp) lepns (proud)?? lepsu (lazy, wimp)
liekas (spare) lieks (superfluous, spare) liig (spare, overflow) liika (spare, overflow)
liepa (lime tree) liepa (lime tree) lepp (alder tree) leppä (alder tree)
liepsna (flame) liesma (flame) leek (flame) liekki,lieska (flame)
lietus (rain) lietus (rain) vihm (rain) liete (mud)
liulė, lopšys (cradle) ?? ?? lulla (cradle [rare])
maistas (food) maize (bread) maitsta (to taste) maistaa (to taste)
medis (tree) mežs (wood, forest) mets (forest) metsä (forest)
mes (we) mēs (we) me (we) me (we)
mokėti (to pay) maksāt (to pay) maksta (to pay) maksaa (to pay)
bamba (navel) naba (navel) naba (navel) napa (navel)
naras (diver) nirējs (diver) naara (anchor-like tool for searching under water) naara (anchor-like tool for searching under water)
nerpa (ringed seal) ?? ?? norppa (ringed seal)
tinti (to swell) paisums (high tide) paisuda (to swell) paisua (to swell)
paršas (pig) sivēns, cūcēns (pig) põrsas (young pig) porsas (young pig)
poras (leek) puravs (leek) porrulauk (leek) purjo (leek)
puodas (pot) pods (pot) pada (pot) pata (pot)
putra (swill) putra (porridge,gruel) puder (porridge) puuro (porridge)
raitas (on a horse), greitas (fast) raits (brisk) kärmas raitis (brisk)
ratas (wheel) rats (wheel) ratas (wheel) ratas (wheel [in mechanics])
rugys (rye) rudzi (rye) rukis (rye) ruis (rye)
grybas (mushroom) sēne (mushroom) seen (mushroom) sieni (mushroom)
silkė (herring) silke (herring) silk (herring) silakka (herring)
tamsus (dark) tumšs (dark) tume (dark) tumma (dark)
plienas (steel) tērauds (steel) teras (steel) teräs (steel)
teta (aunt) tante (aunt) tädi (aunt) täti (aunt)
tiesus (straight) taisns (straight) tee (road) tie (road)
tiltas (bridge) tilts (bridge) sild (bridge) silta (bridge)
vainoti (to abuse) vainot (to blame) vaen (hatred) vainota (to persecute)
vargas (misery) vārgs (sickly) varas (thief) varas (thief)
varna (crow) vārna (crow) vares (crow) varis (crow)
vėl (again) vēl (still) veel (still) vielä (still,again)

Explanations:
LT/LV/EE/FI:?? I have found no word to fit the series
Please let me know if you have a suitable suggestion. :lol:

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Last edited by gelezinkelio stotis on 2007 06 05, 21:39, edited 61 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 24, 18:00 
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My Estonian teacher said it was like 250 words that Finns/Estonians borrowed from the Balts, and something like 5 words that the Balts took from up north :).

Only one example sparked in my head now:

LT: tėvas (father)
LV: tēvs (father)
EE: taevas (sky)

Alas, I don't know the Finnish variant for sky/father.

By the way, I see there's quite a large group of Estonian words that end in -as, and many of them seem to have a connection to Baltic words, e.g. ratas (wheel), taevas, etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 24, 18:10 

Joined: 2007 05 14, 18:19
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Location: Suomija
Pigmalijonas wrote:
My Estonian teacher said it was like 250 words that Finns/Estonians borrowed from the Balts, and something like 5 words that the Balts took from up north :).

Only one example sparked in my head now:

LT: tėvas (father)
LV: tēvs (father)
EE: taevas (sky)

Alas, I don't know the Finnish variant for sky/father.

By the way, I see there's quite a large group of Estonian words that end in -as, and many of them seem to have a connection to Baltic words, e.g. ratas (wheel), taevas, etc.



Heaven or sky is 'taivas' in Finnish. I must admit I would have hesitated to make the connection between father and sky even if the words seem very similar. :)

I try to also make up a list with Finnish words ending with '-s' Quite a few of them must be Baltic loans.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 17:40 
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gelezinkelio stotis wrote:
I must admit I would have hesitated to make the connection between father and sky even if the words seem very similar. :)

I see some logic in the connection between father and sky, since there's a connection between mother and earth/ground (žemė). I think in the mythology of many nations you have the female earth and the manly sky, don't you?

Anyway, what do you think about

EE/LT/EN:
rahvas/tauta/nation
kitsas/siauras/narrow
telekas/"telikas"/tv
pirukas/pyragas/pie
?

It's also interesting that these 'as' Estonian words have -a in their genitive case just like Latvian -a, and -a in some Lithuanian dialects.

It's probably a coincidence though, but it sure helps me learn those words :).


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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 20:51 

Joined: 2007 05 14, 18:19
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Pigmalijonas wrote:
gelezinkelio stotis wrote:
I must admit I would have hesitated to make the connection between father and sky even if the words seem very similar. :)

I see some logic in the connection between father and sky, since there's a connection between mother and earth/ground (žemė). I think in the mythology of many nations you have the female earth and the manly sky, don't you?

Anyway, what do you think about

EE/LT/EN:
rahvas/tauta/nation
kitsas/siauras/narrow
telekas/"telikas"/tv
pirukas/pyragas/pie
?

It's also interesting that these 'as' Estonian words have -a in their genitive case just like Latvian -a, and -a in some Lithuanian dialects.

It's probably a coincidence though, but it sure helps me learn those words :).


I still doubt the father/sky tevas/taivas connection for two reasons. In all languages both words father and sky belong to basic words and are not easily loaned from other languages. The other reason is that the original Finnougric word doesn't have 'e', in Estonian the changing of the 'i' to 'e' (taivas-taevas) has taken place much later. In mythology the connection with mother/earth and father/heaven is of course possible. By the way, I think I have also read about the suspected connection between 'taivas' and 'dangus' but that seems a bit thin to me. :? Finnish and Lithuanian should be conservative languages and not make so drastic changes. :P

The word 'pirugas' is a loan from Russian and 'telikas' a very late loan. :lol: 'Rahvas' and 'kitsas' could very well be Baltic loans but not necessarily from 'tauta' and 'siauras'. Do you have other possible alternative origins for those words? 'Kits' in Estonian means 'goat', domesticated animals are very possible Baltic loans.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 21:05 
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How did the Finns and Estonians get the -as ending, anyway? The first time I found out leedukas stands for 'a Lithuanian' in Estonian, I laughed, because that means 'a piece of ice' (ledukas). What is more interesting is that the genitive case is also just like the baltic one: -a (LV -a, LT -o). This is how I started to become suspicious ;).


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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 21:26 

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Pigmalijonas wrote:
How did the Finns and Estonians get the -as ending, anyway? The first time I found out leedukas stands for 'a Lithuanian' in Estonian, I laughed, because that means 'a piece of ice' (ledukas). What is more interesting is that the genitive case is also just like the baltic one: -a (LV -a, LT -o). This is how I started to become suspicious ;).


The Estonians use the ending -as much more than Finns (our nouns usually end with vowel so those ending with 's' are always suspected Baltic loans: varis/crow, lipas/box, kauris/deer, teuras/animal to be slaughtered, jänis/hare etc).

The genitive ending in Finnougric is originally -n. But the Estonians just keep dropping letters from the words. 8)

To Finns the Estonian 'leedukas' sounds funny, too.
(Seeing the words 'geležinkelio stotis' on the wall of the Kaunas railway station on an very early April morning many, many years ago was amusing, too) :P :P

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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 21:33 
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varis does remind of 'varna' (crow) a lot :).

Tai ką suomiškai reiškia „geležinkelio stotis“?
So what does geležinkelio stotis mean in Finnish? :)


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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 21:41 

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Pigmalijonas wrote:
varis does remind of 'varna' (crow) a lot :).

Tai ką suomiškai reiškia „geležinkelio stotis“?
So what does geležinkelio stotis mean in Finnish? :)


rautatieasema

rauta=iron (compare with raudonas/red)
tie=road
asema=station

Does that look amusing, too? :P

By the way, I just added new words to my suspected loan word list.
Should I add the strange combination LT:maistas/food FI:maistaa=to taste? :shock:

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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 21:56 
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The rautatieasema thing is cool indeed.

maitsma (Estonian for tasting) sure reminds me of food :).

Now what can you say about this:

LT: vėl (again)
LV: vēl (still)
EE: veel (still)
FI: ??


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PostPosted: 2007 05 25, 22:02 

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Pigmalijonas wrote:
The rautatieasema thing is cool indeed.

maitsma (Estonian for tasting) sure reminds me of food :).

Now what can you say about this:

LT: vėl (again)
LV: vēl (still)
EE: veel (still)
FI: ??


Notice that we Finns have kept the consonants in correct st-order (maistaa). :D

In Finnish vielä/still. I must add that, thank you!

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PostPosted: 2007 06 02, 09:48 
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Dar du :).
Two more.

EN: mushroom LT: grybas LV: sene EE: seen FI: ???
EN: pot LT: puodas LV: pods EE: pada FI: ???


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PostPosted: 2007 06 02, 10:09 

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Pigmalijonas wrote:
Dar du :).
Two more.

EN: mushroom LT: grybas LV: sene EE: seen FI: ???
EN: pot LT: puodas LV: pods EE: pada FI: ???


Thank you, Pigmalijonas, I'll add those. In the mushroom case (when the Lithuanian word doesn't resemble) could it be possible that Latvian has taken the word from Finnougric, because after all among Latvians has for the centuries lived the Finnougric people of Livonians, which perhaps have been in busy in arranging mushroom outings with their Latvian friends :P .

When adding the words I try to be on my toes and not add words which probably could have been loaned to Finnougric from other Indo-European languages. The Finns have for centuries taken words from mainly Swedish, the Estonians have a multitude of German loan words.

Please, dear readers, keep those suggestions coming. I would also be happy if you found words to fill the LT/LV/EE:?? gaps. :D

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PostPosted: 2007 06 02, 11:11 
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gelezinkelio stotis wrote:
In the mushroom case (when the Lithuanian word doesn't resemble) could it be possible that Latvian has taken the word from Finnougric, because after all among Latvians has for the centuries lived the Finnougric people of Livonians, which perhaps have been in busy in arranging mushroom outings with their Latvian friends :P .

Lol, that would be logical :).

I'll use my admin powers to fill in some of the ??? places if I find out what to fill with :).


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PostPosted: 2007 06 05, 18:21 
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I did some updating on the list.

By the way, I think bortas is not of Lithuanian descent. We borrowed it from some other language.


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 01:19 

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I see you have "laivas" on the list. This is I think an example of a word that was borrowed in the direction Finnic -> Baltic (having earlier come to Finnic from Germanic).

So, we have a Germanic word something like "floy" (cognate with English fleet, float, flow) being borrowed by Finnish and losing the initial consonant (this seems to be common in Finnish borrowing*) and then borrowed onward into Baltic.

*For example, the word "chleb" (bread) was borrowed into Finnish as "leipa", the Finnish word for "glasses" is "lasit".


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 01:55 

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Apart from words, I think it's interesting to look at the "illative" noun case ending that you see in phrases like dešinėn, kairėn, karan. This case does not exist in Indo-European, but in Finnish it ends with an "n" just like in the Lithuanian singular.

Could it be that the non-Indo-European noun cases (including the locative and "oddball" dialectal cases) are the result of influence through long contact with Finnic languages?


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 02:05 

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gelezinkelio stotis wrote:
When adding the words I try to be on my toes and not add words which probably could have been loaned to Finnougric from other Indo-European languages. The Finns have for centuries taken words from mainly Swedish, the Estonians have a multitude of German loan words.


kėglis (skittle) ķeglis (skittle) keegel (pin, tenpin) keila (pin, tenpin)

It seems likely to me that these have a common origin in Germanic "Kegel".

katilas (kettle) katls (kettle) katel (kettle) kattila (kettle)

The Finnish could have been borrowed from Germanic "Ketel" but the similarity to the Baltic words is impressive.


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 08:27 
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hibby wrote:
Apart from words, I think it's interesting to look at the "illative" noun case ending that you see in phrases like dešinėn, kairėn, karan. This case does not exist in Indo-European, but in Finnish it ends with an "n" just like in the Lithuanian singular.

Could it be that the non-Indo-European noun cases (including the locative and "oddball" dialectal cases) are the result of influence through long contact with Finnic languages?

Don't know about the illative, but the addesive cases were formed when the postposition (pie) merged with the ending:

velnio pie - at the devil
velniopi - at the devil

The illative case, I guess, could have merged the preposition į, which earlier looked like int or in:

medis: į medį -> in medį -> medį in -> medin

Just my amateur guesses :oops:.


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 15:38 

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Speaking as even more of an amateur, your guesses sound right to me - as I understand it that is indeed how noun case endings are formed. If your guess about the illative originating from "in, į" is right, then it's unrelated to the Finnish illative in "n", which has a quite different origin. Anyway it would be very unusual for grammatical forms to be borrowed.

The Latin ablative plural ending "-ibus" is known to have its origin in an IE root cognate with the English word "by" - it would be interesting if the postposition "pie" (and hence the Lithuanian adessive form) was also cognate.

By the way, I never heard of the postposition "pie" (which is not in itself surprising, because I don't know Lithuanian very well!) and modern Lithuanian seems to make very little use of postpositions (link, vietoj,...?) Is this an older feature of the language?

I wonder if the Finnic influence on Lithuanian grammar was more conceptual - most of the branches of IE have been losing complexity for at least 2000 years, with case endings converging with each other and being lost. Even classical Latin had no more than 5(?) distinct singular forms for any noun. Lithuanian alone seems to have continued to gain complexity, adding new forms that didn't exist in the parent language. Could it be anything to do with the example of neighbours with 15 noun cases?

All of the above to be taken as my personal musings - I am not a linguist!


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PostPosted: 2007 07 23, 20:54 
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hibby wrote:
By the way, I never heard of the postposition "pie" (which is not in itself surprising, because I don't know Lithuanian very well!) and modern Lithuanian seems to make very little use of postpositions (link, vietoj,...?) Is this an older feature of the language?

This postposition actually doesn't exist anymore in Lithuanian. Today it is only left in Latvian as a preposition, and in Lithuanian we have prie and pas as its equivalents.

hibby wrote:
Lithuanian alone seems to have continued to gain complexity, adding new forms that didn't exist in the parent language. Could it be anything to do with the example of neighbours with 15 noun cases?

This is a very interesting hypothesis you are having! However Slavic languages have the similar amount of cases as the Baltic, but they are spread all over Europe.


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PostPosted: 2007 09 14, 17:25 

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Funny, I studied Estonian philology here in Tallinn and our professors always said that the Finnougric tribes borrowed from the Balts the vocabulary of agriculture and the Balts borrowed from them words about boats and fishing/fish. So I always knew that the words laivas, burė, silkė and also kadagys are of Finno-Ugric origin. And I also read the same thing about the same words from a Lithuanian book :?
The word SEEN/SIENI does also come from Finno-Ugric, as far as I have read, the same with the word MAJA.
Lennart Meri wrote a book about the ancient Estonian tribes and he said there that the original words for SKY and TOOTH in Estonian used to be ILM and PII. The words that we use now for them (taevas, hammas) come from the Balts. I always thought that Estonian word TAEVAS is somehow related to Lithuanian word DIEVAS :wink:


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PostPosted: 2007 10 12, 13:41 
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Pigmalijonas wrote:
How did the Finns and Estonians get the -as ending, anyway? The first time I found out leedukas stands for 'a Lithuanian' in Estonian, I laughed, because that means 'a piece of ice' (ledukas). What is more interesting is that the genitive case is also just like the baltic one: -a (LV -a, LT -o). This is how I started to become suspicious ;).
lol this one was nice =)
just yesterday i read the sentence "Tikiu, kad knygoje rasite daug įdomių ir naudingų dalykų" as I was told, "naudingas" means useful or helpful and in Estonian "nauding" means pleasure :)
so maybe some useful things can bring pleasure, too or well, on the opposite, pleasant things can be useful =) just how you like it more :lol:


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PostPosted: 2007 10 15, 13:23 

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...and in Latvian NAUDA means money, which is also a similar word to NAUDING/NAUDINGAS and also it's meaning can be useful and of pleasure :D
But the the thing with "leedukAS" is that it is actually a -kas ending not an -as ending. It is a very much used in Estonian, especially in slang words that Estonians come up with when they are too lazy to say the official long version. It should be LEEDULANE but it is too long to say, so in nonofficial conversations Estonians prefer to say "leedukas". We also have a teleKAS for televiisor and pastaKAS for pastapliiats, lasteKAS for lastesaade, multiKAS for multifilm. And the genitive in Estonian always has to end with a vowel.
Another thing that I have found similar is the -ja/-jas ending do mark a person who does something: EST - ehitaJA (builder), õpetaJA (teacher), vallutaJA (conqueror); LT - gydytoJAS (doctor), kirpėJAS (hairdresser), mokytoJAS (teacher).
And of course the endings for verbs in first and second person in plural -me; -te. But that is also similar in Russian :wink:


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