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 Post subject: nasal vowel
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 00:02 
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Ok people, here comes another question I'm afraid to write! :oops: Don't laugh! And I hope it doesn't take me deep into a dark forest to find poison mushrooms!! :? And please don't think I am doubting any of you for any reason. As a beginner learning the language, it's first important to understand the terminology used in grammar rules. :? With your help, I can learn from my mistakes. :)

Previous post on the verb game brought up the subject of "nasal vowels". Apparently, one of which is the Lithuanian "ę".

Ascii wrote: "When there is a nasal vowel on the infinitive and on the other forms of the verb there is an "N", the nasal is lost." The verb in question was "nusprendžiu".

First question: What is a "nasal vowel"? Apparently there are other "nasal vowels" that cause this change in the verb?

Second question: My Po truputį book and this Debesėlis school (as far as I could search) had nothing on this rule. So how exactly does it apply and work? Can you give me examples of words in which it would apply?

Only one thing I found in this forum that looks maybe related was this post by pigmalijonas. Maybe it somehow is related to this rule?

Pigmalijonas wrote in a forum post titled vowels for dummies part 2:
"Because
1) ę is like 'Mat' in both stressed and unstressed vowels;
2) ę is a 'historical' vowel. It used to be 'en'."

As always, thank you in advance for your continued help and patience. :wink: You all have busy lives of your own.

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 Post subject: Re: nasal vowel
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 11:33 
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snowbird wrote:
First question: What is a "nasal vowel"? Apparently there are other "nasal vowels" that cause this change in the verb?

Second question: My Po truputį book and this Debesėlis school (as far as I could search) had nothing on this rule. So how exactly does it apply and work? Can you give me examples of words in which it would apply?



Nasal vowels are Ą, Ę, I and Ų. Nasal vowels are vowels that used to be pronounced "through the nose", this is not done anymore.

If you are referring to the rule of ę changing to en and not ęn, then it was the first I've heard of the rule to. So I'm waiting for the answer as much as you are.

Although it seems logical if thinking of the history. If nasal vowels were pronounced slightly like having the letter n after them, the when the letter n actually does come after a nasal vowel it no longer seems to be necessary to write it as "nasally". :) Well this was just me thinking out loud I have know idea what the truth is.

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PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 11:38 
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Found this in the pronunciation section.

Nasal Vowels (Nosinės balsės)

What are nasal vowels, you ask? In modern Lithuanian, the nasal vowels (ą, ę, į, ų) simply indicate that the vowel is pronounced longly, no matter if its syllable is stressed or not (žąsis, saulę, įdomus, mūsų).

In the old days these vowels used to be uttered through the nose; hence the name - nasal vowels. Today they're still being marked due to tradition. On the other hand, they're not simple vowels - they indicate a long vowel, as mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: nasal vowel
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 12:07 
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LitFi wrote:
If you are referring to the rule of ę changing to en and not ęn, then it was the first I've heard of the rule to. So I'm waiting for the answer as much as you are.


Same here. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 13:56 
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LitFi wrote:
Nasal Vowels (Nosinės balsės)

What are nasal vowels, you ask? In modern Lithuanian, the nasal vowels (ą, ę, į, ų) simply indicate that the vowel is pronounced longly, no matter if its syllable is stressed or not (žąsis, saulę, įdomus, mūsų).

In the old days these vowels used to be uttered through the nose; hence the name - nasal vowels. Today they're still being marked due to tradition. On the other hand, they're not simple vowels - they indicate a long vowel, as mentioned.


Above text found here:
http://www.debeselis.net/pronunciation.php

:oops: Oops! How did I miss finding that? Thanks! It was helpful! That answers at least part of the question.

But still don't find anything to give me direction on when to drop that nasal vowel and use a different vowel. :?

Since my job here often requires a lot of letter writing, I want to spell correctly. Even writing a simple text message on a mobile phone is teaching me humility! At least it is comforting that it was also a new rule to both of you! :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 19:26 
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The change of ę to en (or rather from en to ę) happens only in verbs (spręsti - sprendžia - sprendė; kęsti - kenčia - kentė; etc). By the way, it is obligatory that you learn these three forms by heart when learning Lithuanian.

Other occasions are historical - therefore in today's "version" of Lithuanian you only see the result:

eglę (used to be eglen),
verbs like tęsti - tęsia - tęsė (used to be tensti),
Kęstutis (used to be Kenstutis),
lęšis (used to be lenšis), etc.

Obviously you don't need to know these historical "rules". But sometimes learning Lithuanian (especially the issue of nasals) you can't avoid a piece of language history. So let me tell you some:

Earlier the Baltic languages had preserved the indoeuropean diphthongs an, en, in, un. Just for you to know, the Prussians had them all preserved in ALL OCCASIONS. In Lithuanian, however, you have these diphthongs preserved only in special occasions, that is, when the diphthong is followed by a consonant like k, g, t, d and some others (can't remember now exactly).

Therefore now in Lithuanian you see:

ranka (an followed by k),
kentė (en followed by t),
sprendė (en followed by d),
penki (en followed by k),
lindo (in followed by d),
siuntė (un followed by t) and a lot more;
but ąžuolas (an was followed by ž, therefore changed to ą),
lęšis (en was followed by š),
siųsti (un was followed by s, but compare siuntė where un is followed by t), etc.

And you know also that ę is pronounced like a long e.

I hope this helped. Let's see if this helps you too:

There are some "blocks" (in lack of better term) of verbs:

ę - en - en block:
spręsti - sprendžia - sprendė
kęsti - kenčia - kentė

a - ą - a / e - ę - e block:
balti - bąla - balo
šalti - šąla - šalo
gesti - gęsta - geso
težti - tęža - težo

i - e - i block:
kirpti - kerpa - kirpo
pirkti - perka - pirko
rinkti - renka - rinko (interestingly it's the en, in diphthong here)

And some more blocks, which I'll post sometime :).

I hope I didn't miss anything important to clear things out for you people :). Questions to follow! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 21:48 
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Missed your posts, Pigmalijonas.

As always very clear and interesting.

Thanks.


Last edited by toto1919 on 2009 01 30, 21:50, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 01 30, 21:49 
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Thank you very much pigmalijonas for your detailed and simple answer. It was not only educational but very interesting about the history of the language. You are very busy and yet you took the time to answer our question. Thank you.

It will be helpful to print out your reply and study it for awhile and compare it with some of my charts and written sources in order to see how it will apply in conjugating the verbs. Again, thanks!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 01 31, 11:48 
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Good tips. Very enlightening.
Geri patarimai. Labai apšviečiantis. :P

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PostPosted: 2009 01 31, 15:42 
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Good tips. Very enlightening.
Geri patarimai. Labai apšviečiantis.

As much as I see, you are using plural (tips), so then in lithuanian it also must me plural ;)

Geri patarimai. Labai apšviečiantys/ (informuojantys).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 00:45 
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Actually the word enlightening is referring to the event of receiving the tips, not the tips themselves. So in other words I could have written: Good tips. It was very enlightening.

At least this was the thought behind the sentence, maybe it's wrong both in english and in lithuanian (But not in finnish). Anyway, that is the reason why I wrote it in singular, as referring to the event (=įvykis) of receiving the tips. Maybe įvykis is feminine, in which case it is wrong either way...

Is this something you can say in lithuanian or not? So is one of these wrong in lithuanian?

Geri patarimai. Tai buvo labai apšviečiantis.

or

Geri patarimai. Jie buvo labai apšviečiantys.

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PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 05:30 
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You have to use the neuter gender when you use an indefinite pronoun (i.e: tai, viskas, kas), which if I'm not wrong is:

apšviečią

But I would not say it that way. I'd simply use the past third person:

Geri patarimai. Labai apšvietė.

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PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 08:11 
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So....

Geri patarimai. Labai apšviečią?

Sounds bad... I would also use you're suggestion, it emphasizes the fact that it already happened. But which is the correct way? How would a lithuanian say it in everyday talk?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 13:44 
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Litfi,
I am lithuanian and I already corrected your sentence according every day lithuanian speech.

Patarimas - geras, naudingas, "apšviečiantis".
Patarimai - geri, naudingi, "apšviečiantys".

I dare to tell that we never used even at school "patarimai apšviečią", believe me, for me as for a native speaker it sound so much linguistic and not natural. As far as we know not everything "sticks" to everyday speech what do linguists say. Speak in a way that majority would understand you ;)


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PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 17:05 
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Palomita wrote:
I dare to tell that we never used even at school "patarimai apšviečią"

When I wrote apšviečią I had in mind the neuter gender, not the masculine plural. So my suggestion was:

Geri patarimai. Tai labai apšviečią.

But it sounds terrible.

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PostPosted: 2009 02 02, 17:20 
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Palomita wrote:
Litfi,
I am lithuanian and I already corrected your sentence according every day lithuanian speech.

Patarimas - geras, naudingas, "apšviečiantis".
Patarimai - geri, naudingi, "apšviečiantys".

I dare to tell that we never used even at school "patarimai apšviečią", believe me, for me as for a native speaker it sound so much linguistic and not natural. As far as we know not everything "sticks" to everyday speech what do linguists say. Speak in a way that majority would understand you ;)

Yes I got that part, thank you very much (it was a useful correction, since it prompted much discussion). So like you said it is certainly:

Good tips. They were very enlightening.
Geri patarimai. Labai apšviečiantys

But since you drew the attention to the word "tips" as being plural, I started wondering that would a lithuanian ever say something similar to, "Good tips. It was very enlightening." But I draw the conclusion from your comment that in lithuanian one would never use a sentence like that. :wink:

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