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 Post subject: how to know which case a verb governs..
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 00:41 
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Aš pabandiju (=bandau) išsiplėsti savo žodyną (=išplėsti savo žodyną; išsiplėsti žodyną), bet man yra išaiškinama (=aiškinama), kad nėra toks (=taip) lengva. Galėčiau išmokti daug veiksmažodžius (=veiksmažodžių), bet jeigu nežinau kokia linksni yra valdoma veiksmažodžio (=kokį linksnį veiksmažodis valdo), tai nežinočiau kaip panaudoti tuos veiksmažodžius. Pavyzdžiui, kaip žinoti kad veiksmažodis-"klausyti" valdo kilmininką (=kilmininko) linksnį? e.g. klausyti muzikos. Negalėjau rasti informacija apie kurį linksnį veiksmažodžiai valdo niekuose žodynuose (=Jokiuose žodynuose negalėjau rasti informacijos apie tai, kurį linksnį valdo veiksmažodžiai)... tai nežinau ką man daryti

Oh man, there has got to be about 1000 errors in that paragraph :oops:





I'm trying to expand my vocabulary, but I'm finding it hard to do so in an effective manner. I can memorize all the verbs i want, but if I don't know which case the verb governs.. all that memorization wont be of much use for me. For instance, how would you know that "klausyti" governs the genitive..? e.g. klausyti muzikos. None of the dictionaries that I've looked in reveal the case that the verb governs, so I don't know what to do.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 02:52 

Joined: 2007 02 26, 13:25
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I think my dictionary always specifies the required case both for verbs and for prepositions. I'll check tomorrow morning to see if it always does that. For example, last week I looked up the word "pareikalauti" and in brackets it said "koko", indicating that both "objects" of this verb would be in the genitive case.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 04:35 
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This is exactly the same thing that happens to me. I've got myself the book Nė dienos be lietuvių kalbos, which has in its appentice a list with verbs and the cases they govern. I've copied it to the computer, I can send it to you if you want it.
Two days ago I looked thorugh a book, the name of wich whas among the lines of: Practical lithuanian grammar. I don't even remember if it was in lithuanian, and it had an even longer list of verbs with their corresponding cases, you could try to get it... or I could.
Now that hibby says that dictionaries have this feature I will try installing Alkonas and see if I have any luck.


pd: Yes there are some errors, but the content is understandable.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 05:55 
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hibby, which dictionary are you using?


ascii, I also have nė dienos be lietuvių kalbos, so I don't need you to send me that list.


How do "lithuanians" do it? When they are learning new words, or referring to words in the dictionary, how is it that they know which case to use? I have several book-dictionaries and none of them include case information. Additionally, www.lkz.lt, which I thought was considered the "definitive" online lithuanian dictionary doesnt have case information either. So is it just another native-speaker magical power that they are able to deem the correct case just from seeing the word? Its all a bit frustrating. I suppose I will try Alkonas and see if that may be of some use. Thanks for the help.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 06:49 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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vaicaitis wrote:
How do "lithuanians" do it? When they are learning new words, or referring to words in the dictionary, how is it that they know which case to use? I have several book-dictionaries and none of them include case information. Additionally, www.lkz.lt, which I thought was considered the "definitive" online lithuanian dictionary doesnt have case information either. So is it just another native-speaker magical power that they are able to deem the correct case just from seeing the word? Its all a bit frustrating. I suppose I will try Alkonas and see if that may be of some use. Thanks for the help.


I am afraid to say there are two factors against students of Lithuanian in particular.
1. Comparatively, very few non-natives learn the language. As a consequence, study aids are adequately scarce.
2. Although I have no stats handy, absolute majority of such students begin learnig late in their lives

Before I share my other insight, I would like to merge "native" with "practicing in live environment every waking moment."

When Lithuanian kids go to grade school, they bring a barrage of misused declensions etc. from home. It is only during the first six years that they get "cleaned up."

Summing up, whereas a notable portion of Lithuanian can be learned outside of daily "native" practice, available methodology is inadequate to accomplish that. The remaining portion is indeed a matter of practicing in native environment.

In case of Vaicaitis, the situation is paradoxal. In theory, he could go to vicinity of Lemont or Willow Brook, hook up with his age peers whose native is Lithuanian, and get the "native" part. In practice, those age peers have their language heavily bastardized by English loan words at least, and are trying to leave Lithuanian behind bound on the opposite direction making English their first - at most.

P.S. "klausyti muzikos", but to make matters worse, "padėti gėles" ir "padėti gėlių" both are correct, yet are governed by another set of rules ascribing when tu use kilimininkas and when to use galininkas.
If you can use article "the", then galininkas. If you can omit article, then kilmininkas.
"Jeigu gėlių skaičius nusakytinas, vartojamas galininkas. Jeigu aprašomas pats pagarbos pareiškimo veiksmas, vartotinas kilmininkas."
Gents, I had to learn the "gelių/geles" case while a secondary school student in Lithuania. "Native" would have been of no help, no contribution.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 07:12 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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vaicaitis wrote:
How do "lithuanians" do it? When they are learning new words, or referring to words in the dictionary, how is it that they know which case to use? I have several book-dictionaries and none of them include case information.


If one picks a BA at Vilnius University, s/he will end up in the scarily caring hands of Labutis/Ramoniene et al. They use volumes of mostly manuscripted reasearch that categorize use of cases to the point where the knowledge can be applied as a set of rules.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 07:49 
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Location: Tauragė, Lithuania
Yes, Alkonas is a very good dictionary. Not very cheap, though. A little bit under 200LT. It almost always gives you the case to use. At least an example which shows the case.

Another online dictionary which is very good is this: http://www.autoinfa.lt/webdic/

If you can spot the cases by looking at the words then the examples that this dictionary gives are very good.

Thomas


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 09:38 
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Thom, if you need ALKONAS, i can send you through msn..it is 35 MB.

http://www.progress.lt/cgi-bin/intraled.exe

also not bad dictionary...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 09:57 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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Palomita,

ar Jūs tuo norite pasakyti, jog Alkonas išgelbės Romą? Paaiškins, kada vartoti galininką, o kada - kilmininką aprašydamas daiktavardį gėlė?
Atleiskite, bet mano kuklia nuomone, Alkonas - tai tik bandymas kompresu gydyti vėžį.
Taip, sutinku, didesniu ir brangesniu, negu kiti, kompresu.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 10:17 
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Gerb. Tkt,

Niekas nepastatė Romos per vieną dieną, todėl viena "plyta" - ALKONAS gali būti Romos statymo pradžia tiems, kurie "tokių plytų" negauna nusipirkti savo šalyje ar čia. Kaip jau minėjote, tai pakankamai brangus "kompresas", o aš juo galiu pasidalinti. O kas dėl "vėžio", tai ALKONAS yra skalpelis, kuris prapjauna ir leidžia eiti toliau.


P.S. Asmeniškai apie save...Arabų kalbos gramatikos knygų, gerų žodynų Lietuvoje paprasčiausiai nėra. Žmonės, kurie man siunčia "kompresus" ar "plytas" (knygas, elektorininius žodynus ir ne tik) labai prisidėjo prie mano "Babelio bokšto" statymo, t.y. tobulėjimo šioje srityje.
Tai kodėl aš to paties negaliu daryti kitiems? T.y. padėti tobulėti...
:?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 10:52 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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Palomita,

malonu, jog regis tuoj rasime savitarpio susipratimo sąlytį.
Jeigu arabų kalbą studijuojate tikslu įgyti lingvistinių žinių etimologijos/tyrimų ir panašiems tikslams, tuomet ištiesų tenka ir pakanka naudotis į ne arabiškai kalbančią studijų šalį patenkančia literatūra.
Tačiau jeigu tikslas - išmokti kalbą ją vartoti (taipogi ir versti iš jos/į ją), turiu pagrindo manyti, jog Jums tęsiant studijas arabiškai kalbančioje šalyje, nebeliktų problemų tiek gaunant literatūrą, tiek išmokstant kalbą pirmosios kalbos lygmenyje.
Esu jau patyręs, kokiu skandalu pasibaigė lietuvės vertėjos, neįgijusios aukštojo lingvistinio išsilavinimo Norvegijoje, vertimas iš lietuvių i norvegų kalbą.
Jūsų kolegė orientalistė R. metus studijavo Kioto universitete. Jai vertimą į japonų kalbą patikėčiau.
O dėl Lietuvos net magistro laipsniais pasipuošusių anglų kalbos vėžininkų/vėžininkių.... www.pasienis.lt.... www.litrail.lt.... - jų angliškos versijos :!: Tobulinimas nepadės: kiaurus puslapius reiktų naujai versti nuo pradinio taško.
Dėkoju už dėmesį.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 11:08 
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Tkt,

Aš jau baigiau studijas. Arabų mokausi savarankiškai (sportinis interesas, naudinga) ir sekasi tikrai gerai.
Tikrai nesu kalbų "vertimo specialistė", nes ne tą mokiausi.

O.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 11:37 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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Palomita,

puiku (šauktukas)
Tuomet tekyla vargu bau ar retorinis klausimas, ko siekia kai kurie šiame forume dalyvaujantys ir net Lietuvoje gyvenantys asmenys, kuriems lietuvių kalba - ne gimtoji.
Galbūt to paties, ko ir Jūs, studijuodama arabų kalbą? Tuomet jų būklė - ne kancerogeninės kilmės, ir Alkonas pasitarnaus lingvistiniam susipažinimui su kalba šalies, kurioje gyvena.
Tarsi "Lithuania In Your Pocket"


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 11:43 
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Tkt,

Ačiū.
Šis tinklapis skirtas mokyti kitataučius lietuvių kalbos.
Jie puikiai mokosi ir aš esu tam, kad padėčiau kuo tik galiu.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 12:09 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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Palomita,

Jūs rašote, "kitataučius." Kadangi esate moderatorė, patarkite, kaip elgtis su savataučiais, tai yra, lietuviais, kurių tautybė išlieka lietuvių, nors pilietybė gali būti ir ne LR?
Dėkojų už kantrybę bendraujant šia tema,
Pagarbiai,

Ttk


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 12:19 

Joined: 2007 02 26, 13:25
Posts: 49
Location: Dublin, Ireland
vaicaitis wrote:
hibby, which dictionary are you using?


It's a Lithuanian-English dictionary by Bronius Piesarskas published by Leidykla "Žodynas". It's titled "Didysis Lietuvių - Anglų Kalbų Žodynas; apie 100000 žodžių ir posakių". ISBN 9986-465-72-9. I bought it for LT144.90 at the Baltos Lankos bookshop.

I just checked "klausyti" as an example. The entry begins as follows:
"klaus/yti v (klauso, klausė) 1 (ko) listen [-sn] (to); ...


So you see it tells you the part of speech, the other main forms of the verb, and what case to use. It also shows the stress markers (I can't show them here) on all 3 forms of the verb.

Then it goes on to give numerous examples and phrases; these are very useful.

I have occasionally come across mistakes in the dictionary - mainly on the English side. But they are rare and they don't detract from the immeasurable value of this dictionary for me.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 13:08 
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To Tkt,

Sutinku, kad ne tik kitataučiai mokosi...
Taigi visi : kitataučiai, lietuvių kilmės kitų šalių piliečiai, lietuviai, gyvenantys užsienyje ir Lietuvoje ir t.t. galite mokytis lietuvių kalbos.
Tam šis tinklapis ir skirtas. :)

Sėkmės!


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 13:12 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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Dear hibby,

For a moment, let me be devil's advocate.
Does the entry for klaus/yti include instrumentalis (kuo)?
Example: klausyti ausimi
What if it does not?

Thanks for patient attention.
Ttk


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 14:10 

Joined: 2007 02 26, 13:25
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Ttk wrote:
Dear hibby,

For a moment, let me be devil's advocate.
Does the entry for klaus/yti include instrumentalis (kuo)?
Example: klausyti ausimi
What if it does not?

Thanks for patient attention.
Ttk


Dear Ttk,

"Devil's advocacy" is perfectly welcome and often instructive.

The entry for klausyti does not include the instrumental / įnagininkas.

Furthermore, I don't believe it should! It seems to me that "ausimi" in your example is not governed by the verb in the same way as is "muzikos" in the phrase "klausyti muzikos".

In the same way, we may consider the word "duoti". "Duoti" is a bivalent verb, in the sense that it demands two "objects" - ką and kam. But of course the verb could be followed by an instrumental noun, e.g., "davė ranka".

One could argue that almost any verb phrase could be accompanied by a noun in the instrumental case, and that in such examples the case is determined not by the verb, but by the meaning.

However, in the example "eiti gatve" I am less sure. Perhaps in this case the verb is governing the noun, and demanding an instrumental.

Or perhaps I am making a distinction without a difference.

At any rate, I am no linguist nor expert in Lithuanian grammar - my opinions are based on logic alone. As always, I defer to the better-informed opinions of native speakers and trained linguists.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 14:17 

Joined: 2007 02 26, 13:25
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Location: Dublin, Ireland
Ttk wrote:
When Lithuanian kids go to grade school, they bring a barrage of misused declensions etc. from home. It is only during the first six years that they get "cleaned up."


Ttk,

If you have time, can you please give me a couple of examples of the kind of mistakes made by Lithuanian children?

Also, what age is "grade school"? Is it the first years of a child's schooling? By what age would the child's grammar be "cleaned up"?

Thanks,

Dara.

[edited by hibby to fix attributions]


Last edited by hibby on 2008 01 10, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 14:26 
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In this site you can download ANGLONAS (the newset version of ALKONAS) for free.
http://file019.mylivepage.com/chunk19/2 ... glonas.zip

(Sending will start after 30 seconds, then you can save it by clicking right mouse click ( Save Target As).
Anglonas yra perdaryta ir papildyta kito Bronislovo Piesarsko ir UAB Fotonija žodyno versija.

Sėkmės :wink:


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 15:22 
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Hi,

don't want to be picky, but this version of ANGLONAS isn't really free, right?

Thomas


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 16:26 

Joined: 2007 12 10, 08:33
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hibby wrote:
Ttk,

If you have time, can you please give me a couple of examples of the kind of mistakes made by Lithuanian children?

Also, what age is "grade school"? Is it the first years of a child's schooling? By what age would the child's grammar be "cleaned up"?

Thanks,

Dara.


Dear Dara,
sorry I was away for a nap so it I'm late responding.
I used US system when saying "grade school".

Speaking of "grade", junior high follows, then gets completed by high school. Frankly, Lithuanian system had been reformed many dozen times since the current independence, so I only know that at least last year, the first four years were grade school in Lithuania.

Before 1990: 4 in grade, 5 in (uhmm, those didn't have a name), then last 3, once completed, would constitute "vidurinis išsilavinimas."

Before 1985: 3+5+3.

Kids go to school at 6, so:
1. Grades 1-3: dealing with mistakes along the lines "What does your father does?" (borrowed this particular one from a school in Madison, Wisconsin); if third is "does", many-a-kid think "to do" is a regular verb. In Lithuanian, orthography: when and why write "į ų ą" in accusative; normative use of cases (e.g., locative where often slangized accusative is misused)
2. Grades 4-6: declensions; syntaxis (very complex when compared to English syntaxis); study of Lithuanian literary works begins.

I am surely sorry for such incomplete answer; during a family disaster in March 2007, all my school notebooks, all our library was lost. I will try to devote several hours to respond more thoroughly, possibly by opening a new thread hoping that others will kindly contribute.

I am editing this topic to insert a very relevant fact: standard course of GED equivalent lasted 10 years in Soviet Union. Lithuania was granted an exception to add an extra year precisely because that extra year was deemed neccessary due to extraordinary complexity of language to learn

Thank you for patient attention.


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 18:13 
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toto1919 wrote:
Hi,

don't want to be picky, but this version of ANGLONAS isn't really free, right?

Thomas


I suspect not. You are downloading it for free, not downloading the free version. Software piracy is not much of a concern yet in Lithuania, at least in my experience. But when in Rome...!! :)


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PostPosted: 2008 01 10, 18:14 
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ascii wrote:
This is exactly the same thing that happens to me. I've got myself the book Nė dienos be lietuvių kalbos, which has in its appentice a list with verbs and the cases they govern. I've copied it to the computer, I can send it to you if you want it.


Please send it to me.


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